A sober look at stimulants …… ?

[Anonymous]

My monicker- notpoppin, relates to an 8th grade entry in the write-ups of the year- my song “Too Pooped To Pop”. I don’t remember the song or ever looked after it, but it said what others saw and what I’ve experienced to present. I can get into a rollicking tangent with dumb fascination and justifications galore, and so, while away my time to no end. What I can’t do, among other things, is focus on my apartment, which is a confused wreck, and write the things that might make a difference in my productivity, sense of accompishment and financial means.

Went to my health care provider and they decided to (surprise surprise) focus on depression, so I got Wellbutrin, and have little hope of any real help, I emphasize FOR ME.

So, self thinking is I may need a kick start or maybe more, along the lines of a stimulant. I’m not sure I need the pharmaceuticals, but other things herbal have failed, and it seems worth a try- this standstill goes on and on even with knowledge of a cause.

One distinct possibility is that my health care provider (VA) may be doing tricks so as not to administer what they deem as addicting to me, and to state it fairly, they may have cause with things as they appear. Not being a raging alcoholic/junkie isn’t so simply notable in my case, or perhaps I’m reading more into it than what might be there.

I like the “training wheels” theory, and don’t wish to be on a drug regimen any longer than need be, though it may not work out as I would want, in which case I’ll do what’s needed, hopefully as needed.

I feel I need some serious help and no amount of dampening drugs will be of any useful avail. Anyone have any suggestions regarding stimulants, herbal, homeopathic or otherwise?

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[Anonymous]

Disclaimer: I am a health care professional, a registered pharmacist in the province of Ontario with my Doctor of Pharmacy degree. I am not offering specific medical advice or counseling in a professional capacity. I am not affiliated with this site in any capacity other than that I am a member. This is purely on ADDer to another.

I am having a hard time understanding what your getting at in terms of a question. My first instinct, working in mental health and have a decent exposure to patients with concurrent psychiatric and addictive processes, is that you have some diagnosis that isn’t ADD and that needs to be treated. I also feel like you have had some issues with substance abuse in the past or still do if you are being honest with yourself. What I would suggest is take the advice of your psychiatrist., the VA psychiatric care is some of the best in the world,. Also if you do have an issue with drugs or alcohol that is what needs to be treated first.. If you think you might be prone to addiction, stimulants are bad choice. This is because stimulant are the most effective drugs at activating an addictive biology. The are designed to release dopamine (this is our reward chemical) in large quantities which is a disaster for an addict brain. Best bet would be something like Strattera or a combo of Welbutrin and Clonidine to treat ADD symptoms and for you to be honestly sober. My general feeeling and what experience has taught me is that if you treat the addiction the ADD, ADHD symptoms go away. So I would suggest in consultation with your psychiatrist or psychologist taking an honest look at your relationship with substances and if you fit the bill for addiction, your best bet would be to start working a program, open the phone book find the number for your local AA group, find an AA meeting or NA (Narcotics) or MA (Marijuana) meeting and start working some steps. I would not bother with herbal products, focus on stuff we know works. Best of luck.

Cheers,

Ringo

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[Anonymous]

i quite like wellbutrin myself. perks me right up. just throwing that out there. i also use stratterra, and thats good too- clears up my head, definately helps me focus. don’t knock it cos it aint a stimulant.

your post came off as super cryptic and hard to fathom, btw, and i agree totally about the dopamine stuff, especially if you’re of the addiction-inclined persuasion- stimulants might make you *feel* awesome, but odds are that you won’t produce anything of any real worth or note, or end up with a tidier apartment and more money, if they’re not what you medically NEED. you’ll just acheive SFA at hyperspeed, and confuse the hell out of everyone around you, then come down with a crash and end up pretty much where you were before, only surrounded with more half-completed and bewilderingly random chaos in terms of ‘acheivements’.

you want a stimulant? drink coffee?

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[Anonymous]

True to my modus operendi, I’ve led out with my frustation and ignorance based synopsis. Any response can well be considered argumentative, especially in view that I feel both responses so far have been from practical experiences, and would seem I am not listening and/or in denial or have another agenda I want to justify or cram. Not to say poor, poor me- I have always been the odd man out, a day late and a dollar short, and misunderstood to the point these days it’s no surprise. All too often the matter of misunderstanding doesn’t make a mite, in some circumstances there have been times where there is no explaining but to say I’m frustrated. I’m learning from this site and some others what I can. I hope I’m beginning to see some of the forest.

Perhaps I should prefaced with that 8th grade was in the late 50’s, and any lifetime I might refer to leaves me to feel that lifetime has been arduous. Maybe I only test well, but in my sleepy condition that long ago and since I’ve made impessions. Just to note, two of the people I’ve felt closest to (since deceased) were of the super genius category. I doubt I rate that, but really miss them. There have been few through the years I’ve had such sympatico. Just to say I’m dull, but not as stupid as my adventures would indicate.

I have to liken myself as a sometimes functional moron, all being said. A moron, I’ve read, can do well in his work if he’s supported and backed up in authority issues. Not being a sad sack about it, it is what it is. Been a good second fiddle here and there.

So, a program of recovery ……… what broke me after near 12 yrs of continuous sobriety was a sugar rush from an AA birthday cake. Not having partaken of sugar for about a year I overloaded, eating way too much for anytime. I’d like to think that had I realized what had overtaken me I’d have waited it out, but the impact was devastating, the thoughts and feelings just enough, seemingly forever. Was not prepped for a time like that. Another 9 yrs with another, renewed perspective left me flat, not exasperated, but not caring much about the benfits. Had a few since then, don’t feel I’ve been drunk or out of control and certainly not impressed with any result. Haven’t lifted one in …. oh, I really don’t know how long …. don’t really care and don’t miss it. Not something I would say within earshot of anyone recovering, probably just another odd and inexplicable fact to be misunderstood. In the end, I have to say they were many years of unhappiness, isolation and inborn failure as a functional person. Just guessing, but that reads as depressive, doesn’t it? It is what it is, and hope what I’ve related does not appear to dismiss any suggestion, and particularly not lightly.

Ringo, a great hero to my eyes was Emile Coue, a French pharmacist. The story is deeper than a popular chant of the 20’s and 30’s, I think best explained in a book by Harry Brooks- The Practice of Autosuggestion. Something not applicable to me to present, but a very admirable person Another ADD fueled fact you didn’t ask for was that once I was asked what animal I would be, and replied an otter, which perplexed the questioner. Everyone else said an eagle, wolf, lion and others in that vien. I suspect it wasn’t the first ime he’d posed the question in a group.

jen, it seems you’ve caught on with your effort to fathom. To *feel* awesome isn’t so much a goal, but to think I may never have felt as is common with others is something I can’t ignore. Just such warnings yourself and Ringo have voiced have been on my mind. With such a checkered and diverse life you might imagine I’ve seen a speed freak here and there. Don’t mean to demean any by the term, but it is most closely is associated to my experience. Maybe it’s too much of a good thing, or whatever, but that is SCARY. Being aimless due to inattention derailment seems better than aimless but for another and bigger fix. Then, I don’t know about “as presribed”. The Chinese have a saying that the learning of the self taught becomes ponderous. Not exactly sure about that, but I tend to paint myself in a corner with my own thoughts alone. And it’s difficult to trust, seeing the self serving and egotistical crap I’ve encountered from those who might be above it. So ….. Anyway, I quit taking the buproprion (generic Wellbutrin) due to some side effects and am on the verge of recommencing it. Perhaps I haven’t given it a fair hearing and the side affects may be coincidental with other natural happenings and a specific I can’t explain at all may dissapate. My daughter is doing well with it, but in some other sense. Energy and focus may not be in the sole realm of stimulants, and it does appear some are benefitted. Oh,the generic version has been decried by some, but maybe to make do with what I have. Much of what is reported regarding generic could perhaps appeal to a sense of perfection that hasn’t done me well in the past anyway. Anyway, I’ve been of a mind to resume tomorrow upon rising, take it and double up through the day at the time perscribed and see. Helps that you said as much about it, It may not be for me, but I’m of a mind now it could be, independent but inclusive of your experience. Coffee?. I can drink a fair amount and nap. I drink it daily, maybe gets me moving here and there. My mother used to say I’d never move ’til the Spirit moved me. Okay, now I’m rambling.

I do hope not to come across as a know-it-all, a naysayer or displayed too much of the part jerk I can be. I do appreciate the input from you guys. I have to do something or stay the way I am to further perdition. Thank you.

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[Anonymous]

I am starting to get a better understand of things. One I don’t think stimulants are the key to your success story, honestly I think they may become another stumbling block in what actually is a pretty impressive story. My patients don’t include a whole lot of people who could not ever put together 12 years or 9 years or even 6 months of meaningful sobriety. I understand your frustration of living in what feels like torture because you can’t seem to get even the little things right. My friendly advice is to go and see a psychiatrist, and find somebody you can tolerate. You will not like your psychiatrist or any therapist and if you do something is wrong because they aren’t forcing you to work through the tough stuff. The key to this working is that you find somebody you trust, and then trust them implicitly. This means stop talking and listen, follow directions, and take advice with the faith in yourself for picking a trustworthy person to take care of you. With this person, develop a plan of action and embrace it. Once you start the process give it one year and then evaluate.

Part two don’t take stimulants EVER. Stimulants will lead to a quick descent into disaster at worst and at best bring back all those feeling of discomfort in your own skin that drove you to use. I just spoke to somebody today that had 15 years clean, was having a chronic depression and was put on stimulants to “wake her up”. She felt great at first, very productive, and maybe a little speedy, then she started feeling bored, and she even said the kind of boredem I got when I wanted to drink. :She then became more agitated and uncomfortable, to the point that everyday was overwhelming, Luckily she came to see us before she really started using again. We stopped the stimulant, she started doubling down on her meeitngs and things have improved again. The other thing was we got her other psych meds under control to treat her depression properly.

I can’t do much through a computer, all I can do is give you advice based my experience as clinician and as someone with pretty strong instincts. Please do not try anything without getting properly evaluated by somebody. I hope i am not out of line and being offensive, I just get the feeling you have a lot more going on than you will expand upon and you seem motivated to get well.

Disclaimer: I am a health care professional, a registered pharmacist in the province of Ontario with my Doctor of Pharmacy degree. I am not offering specific medical advice or counseling in a professional capacity. I am not affiliated with this site in any capacity other than that I am a member. This is purely one ADDer to another

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[Rick Green – Founder of TotallyADD]

I don’t understand, you’re a pharmacist but you have patients?

And suggesting people not take stimulants, or suggesting they do, is not something we do on this website.

We ask people to get the facts and decide for themselves.

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[Anonymous]

i need to learn me some patients. i’m so in-patient you wouldn’t beleive it.

seriously though- that ‘don’t take stimulants EVER’ bit worried me too. i understand the issues around alcoholism, sobriety, and medication (my dad won’t take anything opiate based, etc, cos of the dependancy and addiction stuff- he even had an almost severed thumb which’d been dangling off since it accidently got the chop reattached without any sort of addiction-y painkillery drugs.

i have a history of substance use (whether it was mis-use or abuse is debatable, though i feel that i certainly would have had a massive problem had i not stopped when i did), and my doctor is very aware of this, and has said that many people with ADD do have a history of substance use, and its thought by many that they might have taken part in a misguided subconcious intent to self-medicate. he feels that i may well possibly do fine on a stimulant- if and when it’s right, with the right support.

again, everyone does need to be responsible for their choices, and make those for themselves. even drringos ex-addict had the presence of mind to go and talk to someone about how she was feeling- which was exactly the right thing to do- i feel that nobody ever really stays fully sober unless they’re being honest with themselves, and are prepared to be so with others who can help when they’re having a hard time. there are a lot of things involved in the desire or impulse to drink- that go beyond the chemical- that can come into play when pretty much anything changes in someones life. it’d be incredibly difficult, perhaps even wreckless, to put the whole thing down to being solely caused the presence of a drug in her system.

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[Anonymous]

I am sorry for making such a bold statement. To clarify, yes I am a pharmacist and I do have patients. I do medication counseling in an in-patient mental health unit, my patient population is one that primarily consists of people with concurrent chemical dependency and psychiatric issues. I do mostly group counseling for the unit but also will be consulted by psychiatrists to review patients medications or provide advice regarding medications.

My statement above was because of my experience with stimulants and there effects on patients with concurrent issues. I should clarify this doesn’t mean that anyone with a history of addiction should not be using stimulants. But for most stimulants aren’t a great plan, this due purely to the biology of addiction and the mechanism of stimulants. Under specific circumstances stimulants might be appropriate. However notpoppin needs to get help, and I hope in my post that was the primary message.

Jen is completely right, that the people around you are the strongest influence on sobriety. Unfortunately just the presence of certain drugs at certain levels can dramatically change someones brain function and in turn the way they perceive the world. Once that switch has been flipped chemically, patients whole motivation and reward system becomes damaged and basically impairs their ability to make healthy judgments in relation to substances among other things. This is why in most recovery programs their is a high priority on listening and following direction until well into a patients recovery because patients thoughts, motivations and impulses are generally unhealthy. As my peeps in the program would say, “take the cotton out of your ears and put it into your mouth”. This might seem like a harsh adage, but for people in recovery this is might be the most difficult thing to do in the whole process because there brain is screaming at them not to.

I realize I have overstepped my bounds in this thread, I am still working on a lot of my own stuff. This would include impulsiveness. Forums aren’t a good place for a hyper-focused impulsive people, especially when discussing delicate maters. I had no intention of giving direct medical advice , it was actually a more visceral response that notpoppin evoked in me that I think only comes with interacting with a lot of patients like notpoppin.

For notpoppin, please do not make any decisions regarding treatment without developing a relationship with a psychiatrist and having them advise you on your situation.

Disclaimer: I am a health care professional, a registered pharmacist in the province of Ontario with my Doctor of Pharmacy degree. I am not offering specific medical advice or counseling in a professional capacity. I am not affiliated with this site in any capacity other than that I am a member. This is purely one ADDer to another. Any suggestions I make should not be considered medical advice, diagnosis, or recommendations for treatment, if you require advice, diagnosis, or changes in treatment please consult a physician.

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[Anonymous]

Just an addendum to my above statement I am talking about adults. There is actually strong evidence that children with ADD/ADHD have lower rates of addiction if ADD is treated in childhood. In adults with ADD that have not been treated as kids the situation becomes very different.

Disclaimer: I am a health care professional, a registered pharmacist in the province of Ontario with my Doctor of Pharmacy degree. I am not offering specific medical advice or counseling in a professional capacity. I am not affiliated with this site in any capacity other than that I am a member. This is purely one ADDer to another. Any suggestions I make should not be considered medical advice, diagnosis, or recommendations for treatment, if you require advice, diagnosis, or changes in treatment please consult a physician.

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[Anonymous]

Ha, I’m so outpatiented you’d believe it, maybe think a fuse to a high charge was lit rather than the slow burn it is. This whole thing has come full circle and I should know by now NOT to tell anyone anywhere what’s on my mind. Not to be bitter or pointed at anyone, it’s just so exasperating that I should know by now. I don’t know what SFA is that I might get into hyperspeed about, but life itself is a gamble to the next breath, but closer to me is the Greek tragedy, the ever present and versatile flaw that says it works, but not for you because ….. fill-in the-blanks. There are sparse few around me and I keep them confused without any help anyway. Dopamine I know to be some chemical substance, but dopamine schlopamine, it’s just something else I don’t have enough of to function as a person of any worth. Not wanting to split any hairs about worth as I’ve seen my aspirations stunted those countless times by collapse, implosion, self sabotage or a mild wind I could feel and not respond to for some damn reason or another.

Would not be a bad thing to believe my anti freeze not give a rat’s ass juice worked yet. Drowning futiley isn’t so bad if you don’t know you’re doing it. It’s just sickness and regret coupled with knowing that makes it stupid.

Saw the head psych today. Dementia, ah, what a lovely idea. I know well all would be well if I’ll just take the anti depression stuff and shut up. You can’t tell a doctor not to cover all the bases, and doubtless he knows a demented guy when he sees one. Seems there’s more yet to unfold, but it’s gonna be a long, long time. The alcoholism/abuse thing came up, was stern, but don’t know about it being a slayer. Maybe the onus isn’t on a life pretty much lived and the subject should be happily mollified staring at the walls, but I feel that’s what it is in effect for me. It couldn’t dawn on anyone I want to live and do some worthwhile things. I’m not ready for a rocking chair in the manure piles that the old folks are blithely sentenced to. (Not saying all of the older generation live in manure piles, the analogy is for dramatic and entertainment purposes only.)

I posed the question because I didn’t know what to think and nobody has ever accused me of not jumping in without the benefit of available material close by. There are sites on the web that have reports of patients and their experiences. Many of them name other drugs they’ve been on previously, which gives me to think of them as “on” drugs long term, which then and at present I (no faulting anyone) don’t want. The “need” thing as a needful medication or an addiction is a question as slippery as a distinction of taking prescription drugs long term or having a drug habit. Some need the medications they get. A very surprising thing to me was a guy who took a small bottle of liquor on 12 Step calls. He was fearless and would not refrain from any haunt. The liquor, he explained was for hard core alcoholics, better they had a drink than go into delerium tremons. The mind may feel disgust, but the brain and body have a need. It wasn’t an uncommon practice in the early days of AA. I have to think that jen stopping at some point with some certainty is more telling of possibility and awareness than 100 people saying how they felt and what side affects they experienced. With so many silent and so many who’ve been diagnosed and treated with these medications I have to think they’re generally safe. As for my druthers regarding continual use I suppose a qualified doctor could have an answer.

It’s wailing like the hounds of hell out there and the snow whirls out front sculpting drifts that might grace the dust cover of true spook tales. That may be off subject, but I swear it’s true, subject to interpretation. Good night all.

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[Anonymous]

As with anything online we should take with a grain of salt and consult a trusted medical professional. I try to take what a read, consider it and if I need too talk to someone I trust. Personnally, ritalin helps me so much it has changed my life. I am careful when I take medication that are stimulants because they can increase my anxiety.

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[Anonymous]

OK, let me step in on this. I think it is very important to express opinion and to give disclaimers when there is a suggestion that the opinion my not be mainstream. While I believe the information on our site is balanced and speaks to holistic based intervention I would always ask that when opinions are made that might be controversial that citations be provided.

One of the key messages we want to make is that decisions can’t be made on emotion. http://totallyadd.com/informed-consent/

Opinion based on emotion leads to more emotion in others and then the whole thing just deteriorates into one big stink pool. It is the quickest way to polarize people. This site has to be safe to allow people to state what they feel so I do appreciate the need for freedom to do so. If it crosses the line, we will make it clear though.

So, opinion with citation is always best. Let’s speak to the facts and let’s try to stay away from emotionally based opinion.

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[Orion]

I whole-heartedly agree with Dr J. !

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[Author]

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