January 23, 2012 at 9:09 pm #90440
WgreenParticipantJanuary 23, 2012 at 9:09 pmPost count: 445
If you aren’t very productive, it helps to be smart. If nothing else, you can impress people with clever excuses for subpar performance. Well, now there’s this bit of unsettling news (courtesy of Business Insider) for ADDers who have perfected the art of getting by on their wits. It turns out that hard work, not IQ, at university is a better predictor of later success:
“This is from a 2008 study, The Falling Time Cost Of College: Evidence From Half A Century Of Time Use Data, where University of California researchers Philip Babcock and Mindy Marks looked at academic and economic trends from the past 50 years. The researchers examined data from 1961 – 2004 on full-time students at 4-year colleges and also found a strong correlation between studying time and future earnings:
‘The increase in wages associated with studying grows larger over time and becomes statistically significant in later samples. By 2004, a student who had studied an hour more per week in 1981 earned a wage premium of about .6%. … We do not claim to have proven a causal effect, but conclude that — consistent with most human capital models and the intuitions of educators — increased effort in college is associated with increased marginal product later in the lifecycle.’
It’s proof that hard work, not IQ, is what really makes people successful.”
Damn!REPORT ABUSEJanuary 23, 2012 at 9:46 pm #111712
ScattybirdParticipantJanuary 23, 2012 at 9:46 pmPost count: 1096
This is interesting. I might show this research to the students I teach. It might make them work harder rather than wanting to be spoon fed all the time.
So if I want to be perverse, then because I had to put in twice the time at college than my non-ADD peers to get to the same end point, then by rights my earnings should be more than their’s now?January 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm #111713
kc5jckParticipantJanuary 23, 2012 at 11:23 pmPost count: 845
I briefly scanned the study cited. I did not see any reference to IQ, only to the amount of time studied, and that seemed to be measured in a highly subjective way.
To infer that people with high IQ study less is about like saying that ugly people with no social life study more, and therefore will earn more in the future. In short, on the surface, it looks like the study is not worth the paper on which it was written. To say that people who study more will earn more in the future has got to be obvious to just about anyone.REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 1:33 am #111714
WgreenParticipantJanuary 24, 2012 at 1:33 amPost count: 445
Obvious? Maybe. Actually, I had seen it reported recently that “C” students make more money over time than “A” students. And then there are folks like Zuckerberg, Gates, and Jobs who dropped out of university to found businesses. They seem to have done okay. So, the article piqued my interest.
I didn’t pay to read the study, but I wonder if the journalist drew a false conclusion. Even if academic diligence is a predictor of future success, might there be a higher correlation between IQ and lifetime earnings? Did the researchers even address that? In any event, since so many ADDers spend their college years finding myriad ways to avoid the books, I thought it might make an interesting conversation piece on an ADD forum…REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 2:19 am #111715
kc5jckParticipantJanuary 24, 2012 at 2:19 amPost count: 845
As I remember it, I don’t think the study looked at grades either, just study time, which does not necessarily corrolate with grades either. I would think that study time corrolates most closely to “dedication to the task” or perhaps motivation. Anyone possessing either of these two qualities, if carried through to income producing endeavors would, it could be argued, realize a higher income, regardless of intellegence, grades in school, or other qualities that could be considered.
I can believe that the A and B students are likely to end up working for the C students, I think I’ve seen that before somewhere. The As and Bs are the doctors and lawyers working for the C students, who, having little to lose, are the risk takers, the Bill Gates if you will.
IQ doesn’t assure wealth anymore than winning the lottery assures a financially secure future. It’s just another resource that can be used wisely or foolishly.REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 2:24 am #111716
munchkinMemberJanuary 24, 2012 at 2:24 amPost count: 285
I think it’s interesting how ADD seems to work outside of the logic the IQ testers have based their testing on. This may lead to new testing methods…
Current IQ testing has a tendency to show a person’s potential abilities but completely fails to measure what they can do on an ongoing and consistent basis.
I can see how if you were able to stay focused for many hours on college work, that would be an indicator of your ability to stay on task and follow work through to completion in the future. Those are abilities that really do give you an edge in the working world.
It always made me so bitter how those people in school who I considered less intelligent would end up getting all their homework in and getting an A in the class even though I way outscored them on the exam! Looking back, maybe I did deserve a “C.” I just didn’t know what was holding me back from being on time to class and turning in homework so I could beat those annoying homework doing people.
I seriously felt like the system was setting me up for failure and the world was missing out on all my greatness. Unfortunately, my greatness didn’t translate into very many results, and I get why that makes me less valuable as a worker bee.
If only I could sell saxaphone solo’s for 1,000 bucks a piece, I’d be rich!!!REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 3:16 am #111717
WgreenParticipantJanuary 24, 2012 at 3:16 amPost count: 445
And speaking of IQ tests…
Ya gotta wonder how ADD skews test results. In an attempt to gauge aptitude, IQ tests require intense concentration over the duration of the exam. If you can’t stay focused…
Who knows, you guys might be a lot smarter than you think!REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 3:58 am #111718
AnonymousInactiveJanuary 24, 2012 at 3:58 amPost count: 14413
More flies….my wealthiest friends did not even go to college. Some even dropped out of high school at grade 9…..went on to start their own business and still do run their own business(s)……..very wealthy……very driven…….little patience for book work, sitting still, quiet and, yes sir no sir, three bags full…. for 12 Plus years.
I’m, talkin’ wealthy…….
Jeeze Munch …….I could use a hot sax player in my band……..alas at $1000.00 per solo…. your a tad rich for my blood. Blues bands don’t make you rich ( at least $$$wise ). Hahahahaha…….. not to mention hours and hours of travel just for Sunday night practice……airfare would kill ya!!!
ToofatREPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 4:34 am #111719
munchkinMemberJanuary 24, 2012 at 4:34 amPost count: 285
I have a really good friend who has alwayas been so great in business – during the short time where she worked for someone else, she used to come home from work crying because she hated it so much. Could be ADD – who knows – if so, she has totally worked around it.
I always wished I had that salesmanship and assertiveness she has – it allowed her to be who she wanted to be and succeed – no compromise! To me – that’s the ideal situation where you can thrive without having to succeed at tedious tasks.
She even finished college – Art degree – go figure
Thanks toofat – you gave me a good laugh tonight! I wish I could be in a band without the long term committment. Whenever I leave a band it’s as traumatic as a divorce. I’m shy of giving it another try, but I sure do miss the fun!REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 4:46 am #111720
AnonymousInactiveJanuary 24, 2012 at 4:46 amPost count: 14413
Gosh Munch, I hear that, but really…….isn’t the thrill worth the heart ache or heartbreak……it feeds me!!!! There is no feeling like it when the band is cookin’….one big breathing thing…..house lights down…stage lights on…the house is packed…..the dance floor is full, it’s your solo and you just RIP IT OFF …you can do no wrong…..ooooh yes!!!!!! Opps a little carried away maybe….no….not really!!!! I love it…..
Toofat (just another blue stringer)REPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 5:56 am #111721
AnonymousInactiveJanuary 24, 2012 at 5:56 amPost count: 14413
” It might make them work harder rather than wanting to be spoon fed all the time.”1st question to you what grade do you teach or are you a college professor or something?2. i think you should honestly do this if your a highschool or middle school teacher.
” As I remember it, I don’t think the study looked at grades either, just study time, which does not necessarily corrolate with grades either. I would think that study time corrolates most closely to “dedication to the task” or perhaps motivation” I honestly think the study is valid.
My experience and what my teachers have taught me so far..
I attend a school that does highschool and college at the same time..so basically when i graduate highschool ill also get and associates degree from my community college i attend also during my school year…
anyway..beginning that school as a freshman was very hard because most kids who go are “A” “B” kids and honestly now adays middle school is easy cuz they spoon feed you. Most teachers tell you what to do and give you papers just to fill out the questions.
Here at this school they first taught you how to take notes so when you go to the college classes you can be able to study your notes and so forth… Many kids leave by Freshman year but if you survive the vigorous struggle like i did then you stay.
Sophomore year I had a teacher who taught world history highschool and college ethics, so his teaching style was very different. one of his first lectures he told our class is that this class you have to THINK. He explained that if you easily studied for a test 5minutes before and got an A in middle school is not gonna work for his class.
He says he rather us have a C then get an A— Reason: As middle schoolers who are used to getting the A and easily got the A,
only thought of the A and thatwe didnt really learn becausewe were only worried about memorizing a section for a quiz just to get the grade.
BUT the person who struggles at first is better than the person with the A because they are actually learning the stuff instead of memorizing that they soon forget.
(Junior now) at such a young age, I know your pain about putting in twice the tiime at college than my non-ADD peers to get to the same end point. The other day i had to take two days to read 45 pages of a tragedy poem for English. Sometimes I want to quit so bad but ive gone this far i just got one more year to go, y leave now rite? But yeah
If your a teacher make your students think cuz it’ll really help them later on in the future for college and their career, even though they probably hate your class at timesand think it’s stupid like I didwith my teacher in sophomore year but it really helped now as i take vigorious courses
Hardwork always pays off no matter how smart or dumb you are. Just striveREPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 5:57 am #111722
AnonymousInactiveJanuary 24, 2012 at 5:57 amPost count: 14413
wow my comment is super long and it took me forever just to finally post it haha
…sorry you guysREPORT ABUSEJanuary 24, 2012 at 10:02 pm #111723
wolfshadesMemberJanuary 24, 2012 at 10:02 pmPost count: 211
Frankly I found the exchanges between commenters truly compelling.
Like so many others with ADD, I had a major problem studying at any other time than the night before a test. So you imagine how much retention took place.
I agree emphatically that the more one can study, the better off one will be. However……I would imagine that for a great number of non-diagnosed ADDers, that would be difficult to do. I was only diagnosed last year so went through my entire life not realizing what was going on, and wondering why it was my peers could do so well, consistently, whereas I could only achieve success in fits and starts. The best marks for tests were achieved when I crammed the night before (hyperfocus), and the worst marks were for my less-than-stellar projects. When you go through this, you wonder if maybe you’re just plain stupid….and then after a while (after proving that you’re not) you conclude that you’re just lazy.
I’ve done well financially but let me tell you: a lot of that comes through being able to fool people. Figuring out methods to get by, skating under the radar, not take on projects or jobs where you can predict your own failure. And then taking on tasks that excite your passion.
I think if I’d have had access to ADHD meds back in high school (prescribed, as a result of being diagnosed) I’d have done much much better.REPORT ABUSEJanuary 25, 2012 at 1:57 am #111724
munchkinMemberJanuary 25, 2012 at 1:57 amPost count: 285
That’s so funny: I really noticed how I could figure out the teacher’s personality and viewpoint, then incorporate that into my crappy unstudied answers and still pull off a passing grade – talk about snow jobs! Especially worked with history teachers if you could figure out their political leanings
I used to get our PE/Algebra teacher to talk about his pro-tennis son instead of boring us to tears with algebra – I actually passed the class that time (after flunking out on the first try). I guess some people probably would have been better off hearing the algebra lecture…
Then I managed to just skim by with my HS diploma by claiming I needed glasses and that’s why I had gotten behind – not because I was skipping class helping build sets in the drama dept. I’ll never understand how I got away with that one…
It’s funny yet somehow shameful… I always blamed the system and refused to accept the laziness label… but no matter where the blame was placed, the problem wasn’t being dealt with!REPORT ABUSE
Dispiriting news for high IQ ADDers…Wgreen2012-01-23T21:09:04+00:00
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