Perhaps THE fundamental issue:

[Wgreen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQC-Nk5OOfE

In this two-minute clip, Russell Barkley states emphatically that ADHD is, at its root, a self-regulation disability. Forget Attention Deficit. It’s a self- control deficit. And he says something else: he claims self regulation has nothing to do with “nurture”; it’s not about how we were raised. It’s about our neurological wiring.

Freud argued that we are all the result of our upbringing—it is culture, poverty (or wealth), oppression (or privilege), an unhappy (or happy) childhood that largely inform our personalities. If exogenous forces can create problems, it follows that exogenous forces should be able to mitigate them. Thus psychotherapy. Thus other interventions. In this regard, Barkley’s research has profound ramifications: If it is not nurture that teaches us self control, does it not then follow that behavior-modification strategies would be of little use in mitigating the lack thereof. It’s interesting to start connecting the dots.

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[seabassd]

My guess is that he’s saying that the fundamental brain makeup of two impulsive individuals raised in different situations would not change. I’m not sure that he’s saying that their actions wouldn’t be different. I think of it like this…If you had two black balls that were essentially identical and one you threw at a car and it caused a driver to wreck and one you use as an element in a game of pool then they are fundamentally the same yet are being used for different purposes with one being seen as negative and one as positive. I guess it just depends on where he’s coming from. What’s his point of reference.

I like Barkley because he raises public awareness to the negative outcomes of untreated ADHD in an effort to get others to not trivialize the disorder. He helps me step beyond my denial as I attempt to reach a better place in my recovery.

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[ipsofacto]

Nature, or nurture?

I think recent research points to both. The right structured environment can have a huge impact on the development of a child with ADHD. Unfortunately, most kids with ADHD have at least one parent with ADHD……

If as now seems likely, ADHD is a spectrum disorder with a significant percentage of the population having symptoms, but being above the diagnostic criteria; then it’s easier to see how parenting (the right structure) has in the past been perceived as being the critical factor in outcome.

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[Patte Rosebank]

@Ipsofacto, there’s also the issue of all these ADHD behaviours being seen as “moral failures”, and therefore, the result of laziness, stupidity, craziness, etc. that should have been firmly “corrected” in childhood.

Dr. Heinrich Hoffmann’s Victorian-era books, “Shock-Headed Peter”, “Slovenly Betsy”, and “Slovenly Kate” are designed to correct these failures, by pointing them out to children in the form of funny (frequently gruesome) poems & ilustrations.

Tales like “Fidgety Phillip”, “Little Johnny Head-In the-Air”, “Meddlesome Mat”, “Untidy Tom”, “Headstrong Nancy”, “Augustus, Who Would Not Eat His Soup”, and so many others, read like a kiddie version of the DSM criteria for ADHD.   As do the moral poems in “Mrs. Turner’s Cautionary Tales”, from the same era as Hoffmann’s books.

Clearly, ADHD has been around for a very long time.  And treating it as a “moral failure” is just as old-fashioned as those poems.

 

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[Patte Rosebank]

Dr. Ned Hallowell gave the closing Keynote speech at the 2013 ADDA conference, and part of it ties in with this “nature-nurture” question.

He said that, to thrive, all people (but especially ADDers) need three things:

Safety to know that we can reach out and explore our world and ourselves, and that it’s okay to be vulnerable and to fail, because someone will always love & protect us, unconditionally.

Connection with another person, to give us that safety, and to encourage us to explore, and to try, and to feel, and to be our authentic selves.  And to make us stop and see and celebrate our successes, because ADDers are more familiar with, “Thank god that’s over!” than with, “Hey!  I did something really great!”

A Project – a clear goal to focus on and work towards, with each little step being a mini-goal to be reached & celebrated for taking us that much closer to our goal.

When we take that Safety and Connection, and apply them to a Project, it’s amazing how energizing it is.  And how incredibly strong our ADHD strengths really are!

In her book on HSP (Highly Sensitive Person), Elaine Aron wrote about the huge impact that the nurturing of a sense of “safety to explore” has on our development, from the moment we’re born.  Being protected too much and taught to fear the world, is just as harmful as not being nurtured & loved enough.  It’s quite fascinating.

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[ipsofacto]

“ @Ipsofacto, there’s also the issue of all these ADHD behaviours being seen as “moral failures”, and therefore, the result of laziness, stupidity, craziness, etc. that should have been firmly “corrected” in childhood.”

I think the spectrum would explain many attitudes in our society. Such a spectrum might have many more people suffering less severe symptoms of ADHD, than the small number who’s symptoms are severe enough to meet the diagnosis.

I have often wondered if the most vocal critics of ADHD are in fact on the spectrum. Such people might find discipline, and structure are all they need to be productive, and functional. At the same time, they would still have some degree of ADHD deficits. Recognizing those deficits, and their ability to overcome those perceived vices, would lead such people to believe that their struggles are normal.

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[Patte Rosebank]

The trouble is, we’re all expected to learn and do things in exactly the same way as everyone else.  It’s a by-product of the Industrial Revolution, which used mass-production to manufacture things as efficiently as possible.

Mass-production is great for turning out lots & lots of identical things.  And, at the time, mass-producing lots of people who could read & write & do basic math & recite the same facts from memory—all in exactly the same way—was highly desirable.

Not only was it much cheaper to deliver education in this institutional way, but you also made sure that none of those people would rock the boat, by thinking for themselves and asking “awkward” questions of those in authority.

But, since then, we’ve learned that people are NOT things.  And they do NOT all learn and do everything in exactly the same way.  So tying a left-handed child’s left hand behind his back and beating him, to force him to write with his right hand like everyone else in the class, is now seen as both completely pointless, and downright abusive.

So why are schools still run on an institutional model that forces everyone to learn in exactly the same way?  Because it’s cheaper.

Humans can’t just be reduced to numbers.  But the bean-counters keep insisting they can.  And too many people just don’t know how to connect those simplfied numbers to the actual HUMAN cost.

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[seabassd]

We’re the “Birds in the Mine” so to speak. 🙂

Correction: “Canaries in the Mine” … I knew it was something like that.

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[sdwa]

That’s pretty heavy, what he’s saying about self-regulation (or lack thereof).

I am reading  a book that questions the notion of free will, which I started to question after I was diagnosed, because I know trying harder doesn’t help, having good intentions doesn’t help, and almost everything I do to modulate my emotional life fails. I really have to work at it to get back on an even keel if things go wrong, and often it seems a change in perspective comes about from something physiological.

But the book I’m reading suggests that individual self-control is a false expectation for any human being, not just us. How we behave is a product of the social environment – the structures, systems, and hierarchies external to the individual that nevertheless influence individual decision making processes. Essentially this theory says that faulty social systems inescapably produce negative behavior, as has shown to be the case in a range of psychological studies where apparently “normal” people were encouraged by authorities to become violent, abusive, and sadistic without much provocation or encouragement, and appeared highly suggestible to the opinions and attitudes of the leaders. Which is not only creepy but calls into question the wisdom of group decision making – people make decisions in groups for social not rational reasons.

In the future, a hundred or two hundred years from now, I think people will understand that we are all creatures without much more self-control than the average farm animal. We’re all animals. Humanity has a bizarre opinion of itself as inherently greater or more noble or complex than other species. But I think if you look at the history of what humanity has produced throughout the ages, it is all pretty predictable – a quite limited repertoire of possible behaviors.

I can only hope that pro-social values will dominate as more of these things are understood – if we are to be manipulated by external forces, can those forces at least be smart enough or moral enough to shape communities in a constructive way?

That could be brain science at its best. On the other hand, I know someone who thinks the term “brain science” is an oxymoron.

It is not only ADHDers who lack objectivity about ourselves. This is a human problem.

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[ipsofacto]

The Autism community have that great saying, “if you’ve met one child with Autism, then you’ve met one one child with Autism. I think ADHD will come to viewed in the same way. Sure, the researchers will continue to think in terms of a uniform disorder, but the troops on the ground will come to a similar conclusion. The ever shrinking gap between ASD, and ADHD should bolster that change.

That educational model is changing slowly, with whole learning, global thinking, and visual spacial teaching styles are now being adopted (not just accommodated). The rise of gifted programs in the US is interesting. Reading through the traits that are often found in gifted students; one can not help but think, these kids actually have ADHD, and high IQs (ssssh don’t let the gifted kid’s parents hear that).

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[dithl]

“Our capacity for regulating ourselves is a neuro-biological trait, not some socially learned phenomena that you just happen to pick up from your parents.”

Can someone point me to more from Dr. Barkley about self-regulation? The good news is that self-regulation is now one of the central objectives of our Kindergarten program – and identified as being critical to learning throughout the school years and beyond. (Ontario). This trait is no longer expected to be picked up along the way as children learn their ABCs – it’s part of our curriculum. That being said, change happens slowly….and if ADHD is a neuro-biological deficit in this area, then we adults need to understand what approaches are most effective in supporting children to develop/strengthen what they DO have and to learn strategies to deal with with any deficits.

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[Wgreen]

@dithl—If you do a search of “Russell Barkley” and “Youtube” you’ll find dozens of videos of his lectures. Most of his most recent clips deal with self-regulation. In his view, everything else is largely peripheral.

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[sdwa]

Ha. I accidentally spent about an hour watching Russell Barkley videos. But then I had to go to sleep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyDliT0GZpE

This is the one I watched. He also has a two-hour, two-part lecture, says  “2012 Burnett Lecture” (you’ll find it easily if you follow the first link) that is addressing, it seems, other psychologists or psych students.

I like his certainty that ADHD is a serious disorder with life-altering effects. But I wish he had something more useful to offer than the suggestion that we’re always going to need a prosthetic brain – because how do I go about getting a prosthetic  brain,  if I don’t have the ability to set that up? Catch 22.

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[dithl]

Thanks, @sdwa and @Wgreen, I will check those out. @sdwa — ya, the circularity of this whole thing is bewildering. Trying to observe what works and doesn’t work in our lives , then implementing and adjusting a plan — all using a tool that rather stinks at objective observation, planning and decision-making. So easy to spin in circles…and hard to find outside observers who are safe/trustworthy enough to give you a reality check once in awhile.

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[bigrage]

Thanks

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