random pondering about ADHD and an interesting neurological test!

[Anonymous]

I am far too lazy and tired to compose a passage which makes sense right now. but that is ok here, right??? ok good.

Anyone ever taken the Stroop effect test? I found it online. It is a neurological test which evaluates attentional endurance. For an experiment, I took the test without meds. A few weeks or so later (not fair to do so earlier due to a practice effect) at a similar time of day and perception of energy levels, I took the test again with meds. There was a huge difference in my scores. A few important things to note. this test is NOT a diagnostic test for ADHD. Also, the older you are, the worse you will perform on this test due to both learning conditioning and slower cognitive reflexes. So I would only use it only for amusement and to compare only your scores. I don’t think their categories are relevant for adults.

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/ready.html

I also got some amusement playing with a math workout android phone app. I played both medicated and unmedicated. I am usually so terrible with mental mental because I just cannot hold a number in my head! I still sort of suck, but I’m significantly better at it medicated and was able to unlock the next level when i could not unmedicated.

more random stuff:

I was at this fascinating drug rep dinner last night. The guest speaker was sleep specialist medical director MD..(yeah…expert..) At first, I was unsure whether a narcolepsy drug would hold my interest, but we were all a little scattered and talked about a lot of other things.

We started talking about restless leg and I asked him about the connection with ADHD.

some things…. dopamine is actually decreased in the evening time. Meaning that restless leg is worse or only present in the evening. as an aside.. restless leg is related to dopamine deficiency. Questions to self: do you sleep better when you go to bed at a later time? Dopamine begins to increase later into the wee hours. I had some RLS as a child. I now have PLMD periodic limb movement disorder. PLMD which often co-occurs with RLS and can also be treated with dominergic agents. I’ve been taking ambien everyday for 5 years, so who knows anymore!!! I get poor sleep if I attempt to go to bed before 1am. I need double the ambien to attempt an earlier than 12am bedtime. My best sleep is after 2-3am. There is definitely a relationship between ADHD, RLS, and PLMD which is much higher than the general population.

however,

-sleep deprivation can decrease attentiveness

-ADHD is dopamine deficiency in the prefrontal cortex, whereas RLS is related to the basal ganglia as a movement disorder

-in addition, there are multiple subtypes of dopamine

questions to myself:

dopamine exists throughout the brain and affects different neural pathways in different manners. The pathways are very complicated so I need to do more research.

more questions to self….

Is my own increased night time hyperactivity related to the natural decrease of dopamine in the evening? When I was a child, I used to call this phenomena “night madness”. I was always very silly, but usually under control during the day.. however…at night…. I have never been successful at getting myself to bed at normal times due to being hyper at night. This is also when my most notorious hyperfocusing occurs. I have PLMD and newly diagnosed ADHD (mostly inattentive with some less impairing but present hyperactivity).. all related somehow? I also have a family history of various sleep disorders with a night owl trend. My theory is that there is some relationship, but that it is not all related.

my brain is buzzing.. to stay up all night in a dopamine research hyperfocus….or go to bed??……………I was so tired about 3 hours ago, but not anymore.

Feel free to add musings. I hope this was not too disorganized to understand. Oh and I did not include sources due to being tired, lazy, and enjoying my one and only semester break from school work for the next few years!… please please let me know if anything is inaccurate because that is how we learn!

discussion?

thank you for allowing my brain to explode in an extremely relaxing disorganized tangle

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[Anonymous]

Hmmm….gets you wondering doesn’t it?!! I find the same thing with night activity. I find I get tired around dinner time and think “I’ll have an early night tonight, I feel so tired”, but after a couple of hours I am wide awake.

I have recently started on a dopamine related medication (Pramipexole) for RLS and have found that my ability to focus has marginally improved. I don’t feel like I am getting more/better sleep, but I don’t feel as tired, so I guess I must be. Probably why my focus has been a bit better too. I don’t like the headache I get from the medication though. It seems to be related to the drug wearing off, rather than it’s presence in my system, as my headache generally starts mid-morning and wears off as my meds take effect in the evening.

I now ride the wave of drowsiness the new meds give me (funny, I don’t really notice the drowsiness when I take them before work, but I do at home….but I do divide and reduce the dose when I work (I normally take 2 tablets in one hit just after dinner, but at work I take half a tablet every two hours, from dinner onwards, until I have taken 1 1/2 tablets total), but before the new meds I would sleep much better if I could go to bed later and sleep in. I slept best between 2 and 4am, and again between 8 and 10am. If I do not sleep well, then my RLS flares up worse the next day, and I am more likely to have daytime symptoms. Also the same happens after accumulated night shifts if I have a day of poor sleep amongst it all. Then I find I wake up (during my daytime sleep) after the heavy sleep has passed, and am in agony with my legs. I just cannot get comfortable and my legs ache in addition to the normal RLS symptoms. I wonder if sleep affects dopamine production. I wonder if the meds will help stop the daytime issues even though I only take them in the evening. It will be interesting to see.

I did that Stroop test. I got the giggles from saying the words out loud! That really made me struggle even worse than I was 😆

I am sure I had more to say than just RLS stuff. But I forget. My brain is stuck on the RLS. Typical. Won’t budge when I want it to, all over the place when I need to concentrate. Aaarrgghhh!!!

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[nellie]

Sugargremlin, isn’t it funny we can all follow each other’s ramblings

Interesting points.

Here’s a link to the neurobiology of the ADD brain: http://www.adhd.org.nz/neuro1.html

In terms of parts of the brain, I remember my psychologist saying something about the basal ganglia and the site above talks about newer imaging studies that also point to the basal ganglia that is presumed to play a role. However that said, while I love reading about that sort of stuff I can never remember the details! BTW they also mention the Stroop test so will have to check it out for fun.

As for RLS – I think I have a mild case. But as a kid I always had leg pain at night ( something my mother also suffers from). I no longer have it but is that the sort of thing you guys are talking about? I’m always needing to move my legs at night or if sitting too long. Also I think when the meds wear off at night my legs movements seem to increase.

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[quizzical]

Sugargremlin, I loved all the info in your post; like you, I’m fascinated by the connections between this and that, and like you, I love to gather info and ponder it! Your post was very timely for me, because the whole sleep business is a biggie with me right now; I’ve been having a pretty serious bout with insomnia this past month.

RLS – started getting bouts of it during my pregnancies, and it still pops up from time to time. I tend to see it as a signal that I need to go to bed. I’m lucky in that it’s only an occasional thing, and generally doesn’t happen when I’m in bed, but rather when I’m sitting on the couch watching TV at night. So I can get up and march around if I need to.

Off to try that test now…..

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[Anonymous]

Hey guys!

thanks so much for reading and commenting It was so relaxing for me to empty my thoughts in the way it comes out naturally.

KrazyKat- thank you for inspiring me to do more research on RLS Do you see a sleep doc by any chance? If not, maybe you should see a specialist. too bad you can’t see that guest speaker from the other night…. I so wanted to chain him down and just talk to him endlessly for hours sucking his brain dry of information. You are so right about the complexity of treatment and relation with ADHD. Although, remember that crappy sleep will worsen inattention symptoms. it does for even ‘normal’ people.

nellie, I need to look more into the basal ganglia. I know it for Parkinson’s, but that is too basic. I need to know more about the mechanism of genetic ADHD and the pathologic mechanisms of dopamine. Birth injury ADHD is a bit more simple to understand. I would think it would also be somewhat different in presentation and treatment. about the RLS.. it is that annoying need to move the legs. However, a little bit isn’t necessary pathological. It is when it impairs your ability for restful sleep. I had it as a kid, but don’t really have it anymore (or rare). However, I do move around a ton in my sleep (PLMD). Unfortunately, some like KrazyKat, get severe RLS to the point of pain and severe discomfort.

I wish science knew more about bipolar disorder. I know that there are many complicated neurochemical pathways and neurotransmitters involved, more so than unipolar depressive disorders. Dopamine is just one player in the chaotic bipolar neurochemistry mess. I have spend so much time trying to understand this, but there are huge scientific gaps and well…I’m not a scientist. It can be very beneficial to block dopamine in bipolar with atypical antipsychotics, but also beneficial to augment dopamine in bipolar comorbid ADHD. I take lamictal for my bipolar so it has no dopamine action. An atypical antipsychotic gave me some pretty unpleasant akathesia (dopamine-related side effect). I would be so happy to solve my brain chemistry mysteries.

I was talking to my mom the other night who maintains about all the good things my parents contributed to my brain….really?? you sure?? lol.

quizzical, post whatever you gather. I’m glad you find this fun too. Insomnia is the worst. Insomnia is rampant in my family. whatever is going on with your insomnia, it is extremely important to treat it (sleep hygiene, working through life stress and/or emotional illness, and possible combined with meds). Sleep deprivation will exacerbate inattention symptoms, increase anxiety, and other fun stuff!

I’m so glad you guys like this! This is fun!

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