ADD, rage and cross cultural parenting

[Anonymous]

My husband has ADD and rage issues. He tries very hard to control his temper, and has gotten a LOT better over the years we’ve been married. I’ve also learned how to stay calm when he loses it, which helps. And he is on meds for the ADD now, so I thought we were through the worst of it.

But recently we have been in regular conflict over parenting our daughter which may sink our marriage. He comes from a culture that places a very high value on children respecting their elders. But he married me, an American, had a kid in America, and then was absent for much of her childhood (partly during depression, and the rest of the time he was overseas). I tried my best, but have failed to teach her respect like he wants. She is a great kid in most ways, but can be rude and sharp at times.

I can handle it when he loses his temper at me, but NOT when he loses his temper at our daughter. I know he would never hurt her physically, but he hurts her emotionally when he gets angry, not to mention it causes her to be more distant which hurts his feelings. He has thrown things (not at her), punched walls, glared, yelled, threatened to leave, told her he disowned her, and once gave her the silent treatment for 3 days.

My approach has been to develop firm house rules that we all follow, and if/when he stops following the rules I step in. He sees this as me interfering with his parenting. He says I have failed to teach her respect, and now refuse to allow him to do it. He agrees that he should not lose his temper but then says that he is a grownup and he can handle himself. He blames his rages on my interfering. It hurts him terribly to see his daughter being disrespectful and he is at the point of divorce rather than feeling like an “invisible” parent who is not allowed to teach his daughter. I have told him that I do support him teaching his daughter, as long as it is done in a way that is in accordance with the house rules. But of course then it sounds like I am trying to “parent” him, which infuriates him even more.

Others have said that being married to an ADD partner is like having an extra kid, and in emotional issues I do feel that is true, so his anger at me is not unjustified. I can handle the inattention, the projects that get started but don’t get finished, overall he’s more on top of those things than many people with ADD. But when he gets angry, I do consider his behavior to be childish and unacceptable. I feel like I have to be the grownup in order to protect our daughter. And when I do that, it makes him more angry.

Up to this point he has refused professional help (outside of the medicine, which he takes almost every day and is helpful). Does anyone have any suggestions? If he loses us, he will have no one. He is estranged from his family (I think they all have ADD so it is pretty dysfunctional) and doesn’t have many friends. I understand that he is in a lot of pain and fear over the situation. Is there anyway that his need to feel like an equal parent with me, and my need to ensure an emotionally safe environment for our daughter, can both be met?

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[ipsofacto]

There are so many factors to your family’s problem. It’s something we have been dealing with in our home as well.

I am British, and live in the US. There is an element of cultural difference even for me, but that is not the core issue. I would suggest you and your husband watch the Barkley ADHD videos on you-tube to understand the emotional regulation issues of having ADHD. You should also watch his views on ODD as an integral part of ADHD.

You didn’t say how old your daughter is, but I’m suspecting early teens. It is apparently common for girls not to be diagnosed until their early/mid teens. Certainly the case with our daughter. So I would keep a close eye on her. My wife is an experienced elementary school teacher and had not suspected ADHD in our daughter.

From all that I have read, the progression of ODD is very much a product of environment. Once it rears it’s ugly head, you can either feed it and watch it grow, or carefully sooth it until it is no longer a problem. Unchecked ADHD emotional reactions from daughter and father will feed off each other. I know my daughter managed to drag me down to her level a few times. I couldn’t believe I was being sucked in, but since my ADHD diagnosis, I now see how it could happen. In your case, focusing only at your husband’s adhd may cause you to miss the other side of the coin; your daughter.

I think it is essential that your husband looks again at finding some help for the emotional side of his ADHD. Whether this takes the form of CBT or MBCT, is less important than 1) he recognize that his over reactions are the product of his ADHD, 2) That there is a very real risk of causing your daughter to become ODD, and 3) he can do something about it if he cares to.

In the past I had been very much in control my ADHD generally, but had not considered the emotional regulation deficit that came with it. It was conflict with my daughter that really brought home to me how poorly I was able to control my reactions. As I had already been using mindfulness and meditation years ago, it was to mindfulness that I turned for help. I am now much more aware of my emotions and I’m able to look at them in the light of day before I react. In just a few months, the difference is very noticeable. My daughter is no longer able to engage me in contests of will. My wife is more able to see that it was two sided issue and not just me.

I keep recommending “Mindfulness Prescription for Adult ADHD” as a book that teaches mindfulness, and particularly how to deal with emotion regulation. It was very helpful for me in dealing with that part of my ADHD.

Of course, I may be all wrong, but it’s the internet and that’s my 2 cents worth. I do hope you find a solution.

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[Anonymous]

Hi ipsofacto, thank you so much for the reply. I appreciate the suggestion about the videos and the book, and will check them out. My husband is culturally Buddhist so although he does not practice maybe he will be more open to that approach than Western psychological methods.

You nailed it about our daughter; she is 12. I am aware that ADD can develop in the teens and have been keeping an eye on her. I do see some minor symptoms. She is easily frustrated, highly sensitive and defensive, and has difficulty making friends. She says that her mind races sometimes. On the other hand, she is very successful at school, good at organizing her homework, and treats her friends well. I think the average American would consider her a pretty normal pre-teen, maybe a little sharp at times. But you may be right that her ADD tendencies, even though minor, may be contributing. She certainly is more defensive/easily upset than your average child, which in turn upsets him.

It goes deeper too. He feels very rejected by her. From day one, she was a momma’s child. Crying was one of his rage triggers, so when she was tiny and cried often he could not parent her, it was too hard for him when she cried. He also checked out for years with a pretty severe depression. My guess is she sensed all this somehow, and has never felt comfortable with him. He is trying now to establish a relationship with her, but she doesn’t really trust him. He senses that but doesn’t understand why, so blames it on her and of course my parenting.

He has “forgiven” us both for the most recent blowup related to her disrespect and my intervention. As far as he is concerned, everything is hunky-dory now. But its going to happen again unless he accept that his rages are caused by his inability to regulate emotions and not by our actions. As a husband/father with ADD, do you have any advice about how I can approach him with this? I have tried in the past, and he always rejects it. He says if only I don’t intervene – or if only our daughter doesn’t do ABC – etc then things will be fine. But there will always be something, and I have reached the end of my rope. I don’t want to live the rest of my life knowing that roughly once a month we will go through emotional turmoil.

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[Tiddler]

I’m so sorry to hear that you and your daughter are being treated in this way. His behaviour is nothing for him to ‘forgive’ you for – he sounds bullying and controlling and the ‘respect’ he wants sounds like control over you both and subservience to him.

Rage is something he MUST deal with and not blame on his ADHD or on you or your daughter.

I am a domestic abuse survivor so I may not be the best person to comment on this. I don’t know. But emotional, verbal bullying is deeply damaging. My father ‘disowned’ me and it cuts very deeply. His behaviour is not my fault and I will not accept blame for his rage – nor should you or your daughter. Like your husband, if he lost my mum and sibling, he would have no-one. That is not a reason to put up with his behaviour. Perhaps it is MORE reason to let him know that he has to change his ways or risk alienating himself completely.

I strongly advise you to look for counselling as a matter of some urgency. The more angry he gets the more damage it is doing to all of you.

Good luck.

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[Scattybird]

Hello Thao – it sounds as if you have your work cut out for you. You also seem like a very patient and caring person.

I can’t comment really because I am not a parent. However, despite it being a long time ago, I do remember being a 12 year old girl.

My upbringing was the kind that taught respect – a term that you mentioned a lot in your first post. However whilst I did not have ODD, I did not respect anyone who didn’t earn it. Or to be more specific, I treated people with respect until they failed to deserve my respect. I could still be courteous but sometimes I couldn’t disguise my thoughts.

Sadly my father fell off his pedestal with a thump and consequently I lost all respect for him. His behaviour disgusted me and there was no respect from me at all. I didn’t hide that.

So a 12 year old girl is not going to respond to someone who gives her the silent treatment or who cannot control his temper. He needs to ‘earn’ her respect – neither you nor he can ‘teach’ her that. Respect is earned although she can be polite despite lacking respect – but maybe that’s just semantics.

I have ADD and would have had it at 12 although I didn’t know at the time. Like your daughter I could be a bit sharp.

Somehow, your husband must realise that respect is earned. Your daughter will respond to him more if she feels comfortable with him. It’s not easy and he may not be able to alter his ways. But he can learn to keep quiet and start being her friend.

My brother’s children were not brought up strictly and were not taught respect. My mom used to worry about how they would turn out as a result. They are now the kindest and most thoughtful adults I know. But there wasn’t conflict between the kids and parents.

I hope you manage to resolve everything – good luck.

PS – Tiddler’s post came in whilst I was writing mine. I tend to agree with her. ADHD might be an excuse for a quick temper, but not for emotional abuse. You should not have to tolerate that. So it comes back to respect again – and the fact that HE needs to be the one showing respect as well as earning it.

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[ipsofacto]

One way you might approach the subject with him, is to look at other triggers for overreaction. Does he get angry when driving, with telemarketers, maybe politics, or with machines that don’t function properly? I f he can be shown a pattern of behavior, it may help him see that he is letting these triggers take over his conscious control.

Another common trait is look for external reasons why something has gone wrong. But as I said before, my wife at first believed it was entirely my problem. As I stopped giving my daughter a target for her to vent her frustration, she has redirected some of her behavior toward my wife. It has been an eye opener for my my wife, though that has not changed the need for me to keep up my new demeanor.

My daughter is fifteen. Your description of your daughter would have also described my daughter at twelve. She has been very close to her mother too. Being an elementary school teacher, my wife immersed her from an early age in learning opportunities. I think this why she has not struggled with school until now.

Twelve was the age when she and I started butting heads. I have heard many fathers chastising their children in far worse tones than I would use. With an ADHD child and a family history of ODD, I can’t afford to be like other fathers, I have to be more in control of my emotion regulation than an NT father. Perhaps this is something he might respond to, in that it doesn’t matter what are his or anyone’s idea of how things should be, what matters is dealing with the reality of what is needed to produce the best outcome for your daughter. As it happens, some Buddhist mindful understanding of how his emotions are controlling his actions may help see this reality.

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[wawabyjohnah]

Hi Thao

Your husband sounds an awful lot like my father. I put up with similar things when I was your daughters age- things thrown, holes punched, silent treatment, lots of emotional abuse. Don’t ever compare that to physical violence by thinking if he isn’t hitting her, it’s not too bad. The emotional stuff is just as bad, if not worse, because no one can ‘see’ it ie there are no bruises on the outside. But there are plenty on the inside and they remain with you for a long time. My brother turned 30 this year and is still dealing with the emotional abuse from my father- and he still isn’t dealing with it well- very much in denial about it all. My father also refused to get treatment for many years, and when my mum finally convinced him to go to a doctor, he was diagnosed with bipolar/manic depression. He had many of the same behaviours as you’ve said your husband has. But he refused to take medication and didn’t believe the diagnosis so the cycle continued until my mum finally got the courage to kick him out when I was at university. He still has the disorder (I also suspect he has adhd too) and does nothing about it, so still has rage issues and all that.

I’m not sure what to suggest. I know how hard it is to get someone to admit there is a problem and to seek help. Have a talk yourself to your doctor about his behaviour and see what they think could be the problem. Get some pamphlets, factsheets etc and maybe sit them somewhere he will see them and hope he looks at them. Maybe you and your daughter could write down how you feel when he ‘goes off’ at your daughter in a letter to him and share when he is calm, to show him how you feel. Social cues and emotions are not usually an adhders strong point and he might not realise how bad he is making you feel. My father wants everything to go back to ‘the way it was’- which means he has no idea how bad the ‘way it was’ actually was.

As blunt and hard as this might sound- you might be better off without him. He isn’t your responsibility. He is a grown man. He needs to sort himself out and if he is not willing to do that, you need to do what is best for yourself and your daughter. (This is only my opinion from my own experiences)

I hope everything works out for you and your family.

Johnah

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[ipsofacto]

Just a note here. I don’t think that it requires an abusive parent for there to be problems for child with ADHD/mild ODD, just the wrong type of discipline. What I have read and makes sense to me, is that parents need to establish a spirit of cooperation with their child. The child will not respond to threats of consequences, but consequences are needed. Discussing openly with our daughter, the need for structure and ways to achieve it seem to be helping us. Our daughter see the need for consequences if she does not follow through with things she can do, but it’s critical that those consequences feel apt and justified to her.

My Father had issues, and I had always been careful not to be like him. I had never really shouted or displayed real anger, but how you are perceived by a child is another matter. I have read about the 30% rule in ADHD children. This states that most will be about 30% behind their age in emotional development, though not in intelligence. Bearing that in mind, it’s easy to see how even a strict tone of voice might be perceived as shouting by a child. My daughter mentioned something about me shouting at my older son recently. I clearly recall the incident and that I was not shouting, though I certainly wanted to sound a little disapproving. Her perception that I was shouting was quite a shock to me, and a good lesson learned.

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[Anonymous]

Tiddler and Johnah – Believe me, I have considered divorce many times. Financially it is doable. The issue is whether the problems are bad enough to break my vows. Sometimes I wish his behavior were really bad, then it would be clear what needs to be done. But much of the time things are good – sometimes I come home and find them both engaged in some cool project, or cuddled up on the couch watching a show. He’s in that grey area where it’s not clear what is best for our daughter, the turmoil of divorce or the turmoil of working out our problems. And he is working on improving, as I mentioned before he is a lot better than earlier in our marriage. I would have been gone already if it weren’t for that fact. But thanks for giving me insight into how this experience may be playing out in our daughter’s head. I have stressed to her that daddy’s behavior is not her fault.

Scattybird – Personally I agree with you about earning respect, but this is where the cultural divide comes in. In my husband’s culture, children must respect their parents regardless of their parent’s behavior. My husband had terrible parents but always respected them. The idea of a parent needing to earn respect is anathema to him. Instead I stress to him that he needs to model the behavior he wants her to have, to not be a hypocrite. If I put it that way he seems to accept it.

ipsofacto – Yes, our daughter responds much better to cooperative discipline than a more heavy-handed approach. I’ve tried both and the results are much better with the former. I think this is very helpful – “Perhaps this is something he might respond to, in that it doesn’t matter what are his or anyone’s idea of how things should be, what matters is dealing with the reality of what is needed to produce the best outcome for your daughter.”

So I’m curious though, because I don’t really think of our daughter as having ADD but you’ve got me thinking about it now. Can a kid have ADD and be a straight-A student with practically no support from the parent in terms of organizing and helping with homework? She takes care of all of her schoolwork with very little intervention from me. Most of her friend’s parents are more involved in helping their kids stay on top of their homework than I am. She is also involved in an extracurricular activity that at times takes up 20-30 hours a week, so she has to multi-task. She is extremely responsible. These are not things that I would associate with an ADD kid. But she does have other symptoms that seem more on the ADD spectrum, or at least some sort of anxiety syndrome. It’s not particularly interfering with her life so we haven’t taken her to a doctor for it (on the theory that it’s not a problem unless its a problem). But maybe it would be useful for my husband to see her through that lens, it might help him to think differently about how to discipline her.

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[ipsofacto]

QUOTE : “Can a kid have ADD and be a straight-A student with practically no support from the parent in terms of organizing and helping with homework? She takes care of all of her schoolwork with very little intervention from me. Most of her friend’s parents are more involved in helping their kids stay on top of their homework than I am. She is also involved in an extracurricular activity that at times takes up 20-30 hours a week, so she has to multi-task. She is extremely responsible.”

Sounds exactly like my daughter except for a very occasional B+. She is on the speech and debate teams. We started to see the first signs of issues at school last year. Although if we had been more informed, it might have been earlier. If I hadn’t been diagnosed myself and spent a lot of time researching ADHD, I would never have known what to look for. From what I read many girls can fool themselves and everybody else until things get too much for them in college. By that time, they can have a lot of other issue too.

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[kc5jck]

Thao – if you daughter has a high IQ then her performance in school may initially be quite good and mask any difficulties she may be having due to undiagnosed ADD. In my case, I managed to do average work despite ADD because of my IQ, even though I hardly applied myself. I was able to get by or even excell in my classes. In college, like high school, I still managed to get by OK most of the time.

I see now that I should have done much better in college, and high school for that matter, than I did. My performance was far below my potential and has been throughout my life.

The point is that just because you daughter is doing OK doesn’t mean that she is not having problems or won’t in the future. I suggest you keep in tune with your daughter and be sure that she is not having difficulties in performing up to her potential both now and in the future.

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[Scattybird]

I agree with ipso and kc about your daughter. You say she has some anxiety issues. These might be due to ADHD (even if she doesn’t know it) or due to her father’s behaviour, or both.

You just need to stay in tune as kc said – and be ready to act if things start to get a bit wobbly at school.

I understand what you mean about the cultural aspects. I think you’re wise to go for the angle of him being an example.

Just a thought relating to the issue of you and your daughter ‘going it alone’. You say that sometimes things are OK. That should read ‘most of the time things are OK’. If you and your daughter feel like you’re permanently walking on egg shells then that’s not healthy for either of you.

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[Tiddler]

Thao, I wasn’t suggesting divorce but I was saying that this is an abusive situation that you’re living in and if he won’t get help to change things you may need to let him know that you are not prepared to put up with it any longer.

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[Anonymous]

Thanks, all. This has given me a lot to think about, particularly in terms of our daughter. It’s true that she is very smart – part of the reason that she is able to stay on top of her homework is that she is able to finish much of it in class. I suppose that as she moves into high school and has a heavier homework load, that may change.

I am reluctant (at this point) to involve a medical professional because I don’t want her to put a label on herself. We do have really good communication and I will work hard to keep those channels open so if she starts encountering more problems I will know. But I think keeping in mind that she may have ADD/anxiety will help me to work with her better, and also hopefully help my husband do the same.

Regarding the abuse issue, I don’t feel like I am walking on eggshells. I did, at one point in our marriage a long time ago, but he has worked to improve himself and things have gotten much better. Our daughter does not remember the bad ol’ days (I haven’t asked her directly, but she describes her young childhood as being pretty idyllic, which tells me I was able to shield her pretty well). She also says that she doesn’t feel like she has to walk on eggshells around daddy, except for about 1/2 hour after he’s lost his temper.

So here’s another concern of mine: let’s assume that my husband’s behavior does not cross that invisible border into abusive, but is certainly difficult. He feels that he has worked really hard to get to where he is and doesn’t believe he can control his temper any better than he is now, so refuses to try further methods to improve. As a result I divorce him, and daughter understands that the divorce is a result of his having ADD and being unable to control his anger. Several years later, daughter starts having problems in high school, which include anger issues. Won’t daughter feel panicky that she too will be abandoned, since I set the example by divorcing her dad?

I know that this is not an excuse to stay in an abusive relationship – I do have some experience (earlier in our marriage) of how bad things can be and if things were still that bad I would have left already. But at this point it is simply a difficult relationship, and I fear that if I leave because it is difficult I will be setting an example for our daughter that difficult people (which may well be her someday) get left. Am I wrong?

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[Scattybird]

Yes that’s possible of course. But it’s also possible that if you continue to accept his anger and make excuses for him, she will grow up thinking it’s OK to behave like that.

If you are even considering leaving him, then things can’t be good. I am perhaps misunderstanding your posts and I apologise if so. But to me they seem a little contradictory – on the one hand you’re not walking on eggshells and things are OK….on the other hand his anger is sufficiently worrying for you to want to discuss it. It’s a difficult situation…..I understand that. Ask yourself how many times you make excuses for him having an emotionally draining anger outburst and note how mentally draining that is for you and your daughter. If it’s not too bad then that’s good…but…..?

In my opinion (which might be way off base), the problem is not so much the ADHD, but the fact that he doesn’t want to deal with the anger, even though he knows it’s causing emotional hurt. ADHD can cause problems with emotional regulation – but at some point even the most badly affected sufferer needs to take responsibility for their behaviour. That might be simply an acknowledgement of it or agreeing to get professional help. He sounds a proud man whose upbringing might not be compatible with that?

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