Is there really "nothing positive" about ADD?

[trashman]

I think all of you that have a high Iq’s are very lucky. you have that to fall back on. for me if it was not for needing money to live I would enjoy life more if I could go around and just help people and then move on. but because I am not as smart as most of you. I tend to relie on my humor and my ability with speaking it does help out a lot. do I think that it is a positive most of the time not but it has its moments. I just wish I could stop being ashamed of my lack of success in life and just be happy with who I am.

REPORT ABUSE

[caper]

Wgreen: you sound like billd when you said, “If somebody could tell me how my ADD has been a blessing, I’d be all ears.”

Both of you are focusing on YOUR experience. Take some time to try to step into the shoes of other people.

Barkley has said there is “nothing positive” about ADD. My experience and that of some others differs from this.

Either Barkley is wrong, or anyone like myself doesn’t really have ADD. And since a belief that there is nothing positive about it isn’t part of the DSM criteria, I’d assert that Barkley is wrong on this point. Another reason I have for thinking that is Barkley has an emotional attachment to the issue given his brother had it.

Now if Barkley backed off from the absolute “nothing positive” position to say perhaps there is “nothing positive for most people with ADD” then I would have less of an issue with that.

An easy way to prove Barkley wrong would be to survey people diagnosed with ADD and ask them if their ADD has any positives for them. If we find one person, then that proves Barkley wrong.

REPORT ABUSE

[Wgreen]

Exceptions make the rule. Or so I learned at university. Of course there are exceptions. I said so in my post: “I’m sure there are outliers—there always are—but that shouldn’t cause the rest of us to throw up our hands or recalibrate the consensus of highly credentialed researchers.”

Barkley is extremely emphatic when he asserts that ALL available research dispels the notion that ADD is a blessing. If that’s not true, then Barkley should be tarred, feathered, and run out of the academy. I have seen no one rise to challenge him during Q&A sessions at professional conferences where he has spoken. Not a soul.

If you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to the contrary, please present it. I want to read it. I’m sure there are many others who would like to see it, as well. One of the problems with many “amateur” forums is the lack of expert moderation. Nothing would please me more than to hear two credentialed experts on different sides of this issue go at it. Let them present their evidence. Then we all could try to assimilate the information and make up our minds. And we could dispense with the ruminations of people (including myself) who really have no proper standing to speak to the subject. Barkley insists that the research is overwhelmingly in his corner. Maybe he’s a liar, an academic fraud. But from where I sit, he makes a lot of sense. If he is dead wrong, then PLEASE, let’s see the evidence that flushes him out.

REPORT ABUSE

[Bibliophile]

We must also bear in mind that, in order to make a claim that ADHD offered benefits, it would have to be determined that the “gift” was a direct result of just the ADHD and not another condition or a result of a person’s other abilities. There must be a normal group as well to ensure that those who are not ADHD truly cannot replicate the results. It is all well and good for ADHD people to say they are “creative” or excellent at “multitasking” but how do we measure it? Who do we compare it against? There have been some studies that showed some benefit for non-linear thinking. There have also been studies to refute those findings. Many studies are on university students, who would not necessarily represent the average ADHD population who may not reach post-secondary education.

• Is impaired emotional regulation good? Hmm, saying or acting on what you are feeling even when you shouldn’t as it would have repercussions for the future does not sound good to me. Speaking from anecdotal experience, I have lost jobs and friendships because of saying something that no one in their right mind would say at that moment.

• Is an impaired ability to self motivate positive? Not if you want to get stuff done. Sure you can develop coping strategies; in my own case I do things as fast as possible and as immediate as possible to ensure they get done, which does mean that the work may not be as careful as someone who takes a planning approach, may not be as efficient, etc.

• Is a distractable nature beneficial? Not if you are trying to complete something, anything in a specified period of time without lacunae or errors.

• Perhaps impulsiveness has a benefit? Not when the impulsive action does not take into consideration future needs, spending limits, others’ emotions, etc.

• Hyperfocus must surely offer an advantage? Only if controlled. If it is perseverative then it results in actions that would have benefited the individual being missed as a result of the ongoing action. If it is involuntary, the result is wasted time on actions that do not achieve the desired goal. Of course some people can get in the zone and tune everything out. How do we know this is the ADHD hyperfocus though and not due to their natural interest in a subject? And how much of the hyperfocused action leads to the goal?

I am sure others would be able to turn those around. I cannot though. Where I have excelled, it has been relying on coping strategies to overcome the ADHD traits or on my natural abilities. Of course there will be particular situations where some of these traits might offer a short-term benefit, but living in the immediate, the existential now is not good for social bonds and long-term survival.

What if ADHD as it is being diagnosed now actually stems from a variety of brain abnormalities that result in similar symptoms. One person has A abnormality, another B abnormality, and a third C abnormality but all exhibit ADHD-like symptoms. ADHD labels the observed impairment, not the cause. They may all have ADHD, but the causes could be different and this could present itself in subtle ways in how they are able to manage. I am not saying that this is necessarily the case, but ADHD like Autism, another spectrum disorder, sees quite a variety of diverse people afflicted with very little in common. It is also genetic and perhaps other genetic traits interact with the ADHD ones creating the variety of impairments.

REPORT ABUSE

[Anonymous]

Hi Wg……..that’s true as I see it too. Actually, if you put your ear to the screen you can faintly hear merry-go-round music!!!

* We seem to have two major camps “Gifties” and the “Cursed” (I’m likely gonna catch hell for that too).

* We seem to differ on how and the degree to which our ADD or ADHD presents, on multiple-levels

* We seem to lead totally dissimilar lives with tiny threads of similarity.

* We seem incapable of coming to rest or consensus over this issue.

* We also seem compelled to “Do Battle” over this issue…..any issues actually, even the seemingly picayune brings the palace to arms.

Hahaha….maybe those folks peeking into our goldfish bowl will assume the inmates have taken over the asylum????

toofat

REPORT ABUSE

[caper]

Wgreen: I agree there is no probably clinical evidence to say that ADD is a blessing(at least I haven’t seen any). It seems you are trying to get me to argue against a different premise than what I originally said; one that you have a better chance of winning against.

Although I asked you to take some perspective to see things from someone else’s view, you have chosen not to do that. Your position seems to be that if some people see some benefits to their ADD, they have to objectively prove it before you are prepared to accept that it could be true.

To make a sarcastic analogy, could you imagine what it would be like if ADD kids had to prove they felt better to avoid taking their Ritalin?

Kid: “I feel better and have more fun without my Ritalin so I stopped taking it.”

Doc: “Your ADD scores got worse, and your parents say your behavior is problematic again, so you’ll have to keep taking it. If you can prove you feel better without the Ritalin, then I’ll take you off it.”

REPORT ABUSE

[Bibliophile]

I cannot follow your analogy. ADHD impairment is not about how you feel, but about how you perform. When assessing stimulants we are looking for efficacy. We do take kids off of them if they can perform without them. Otherwise, what would be the point of taking them if they were not effective or unnecessary?

Anecdotal comments serve no purpose. People could be in denial, delusional, seeing benefits from other skills or abilities, etc. I could make an analogy to the benefits of other non-scientific beliefs and the lack of their scientific evidence, but I digress.

Presence of Oppositional Defiance Disorder is also a predictor of how often those with ADHD are fired from a job. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WroDEcG7tJc&feature=relmfu at 38:08.)

REPORT ABUSE

[Anonymous]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

ADHD is fundamentally different than any other disorder. There is nothing good about being colorblind. It doesn’t enhance your appreciation of smells, or make you a better b&w typographer. There’s no inherent ability to deal well in a crisis if you’re schizophrenic. It’s all downside. There is something wrong and nothing balances it out.

ADHD has some positives. They may vary with your specific condition and circumstances, and they may be of little consolation if the drawbacks swamp the benefits. But they are there. We can argue all day over whether or not those are coping mechanism or if we would have them without the ADHD, but to caper’s original question, there are good things about having ADHD.

For some people (I would hazard toofat and myself), those benefits make us happy to be who we are and knowing we have ADHD means we are aware of the downsides and can mitigate them. For other people, the upside is negligible and the downside is overwhelming. It seems to be like having your lawn mowed for free when your house is on fire.

REPORT ABUSE

[Wgreen]

Pete, refresh my memory. What are those positives again? And can you point me to your evidence?

I want to send a note along with your post to Dr. Barkley and have him respond. If he e-mails me back, I’ll post it on this string.

REPORT ABUSE

[Anonymous]

I think Dr. Barkley is pretty clear on his views http://consults.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/the-ups-and-downs-of-a-d-h-d/ But that’s not really the point. Caper’s question was whether or not Barkley is right.

For the benefits, the list is long with lots of synonyms, but I don’t know of any scientific research on the subject (see http://www.suite101.com/content/positive-aspects-of-adhd-and-add-a6201):

• Creative thinking
• problem solving
• adaptability
• sense of humor
• increased cognitive tempo
• energetic
• charismatic
• resilient
• perceptive
• curious
• passionate

REPORT ABUSE

[Wgreen]

Thanks Pete. I’ll send them along and we’ll see what, if anything, he says. If he responds, we’ll see if we can find somebody with similar credentials to critique HIS critique, perhaps somebody associated with this site. That would only be fair. Who knows, maybe we’ll learn something.

REPORT ABUSE

[Anonymous]

There’s one other asset that ADDers bring to the table. James Surowiecki wrote a book called the Wisdom of Crowds. The thesis of the book was that a group of random lay people, by averaging their answers, could more accurately determine an answer or predict an outcome than a team of experts. The theory is that the lay people all have randomized errors, which cancel out, while the experts suffer from groupthink and confirmation bias. (I’m simplifying, but please read the book, it’s fascinating).

Anyway, as an employer, the way to use this information is to have intellectual diversity (and people who speak their mind), so that the company is not exposed to blind spots and groupthink. The other thing that helps is a devil’s advocate effect (the Solomon Asch conformity experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments), where one person who disagrees with the majority opinion, just by speaking up, allows others to speak up as well. This relieves the peer pressure to agree, even if the devil’s advocate is intentionally wrong, the effect is the same.

I can’t think of a better employee in this sense than someone with ADD. The blurting out, the differing perspective and the creative problem solving allow people with ADD to contribute in ways others cannot. It’s like having a designated “No man.” In this sense, our not fitting in is what makes us so valuable.

REPORT ABUSE

[Anonymous]

Wgreen: thanks, it would be an interesting debate.

My last post gives me an idea for a futures market using ADDers. If I’m right about Surowiecki, then an average of ADDers’ opinions may be more valuable than normal people. We can have a predictive market to test that. (PUtting bets on who will win the World Series or the next President). Ah, if only I didn’t have ADD, I could follow through on that.

REPORT ABUSE

[Anonymous]

Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahha ………Pete I was on the floor reading your close…… loved it!!!!

Wg, I bow to your knowledge and research, you are obviously well well researched….kudos to you, well done from my perspective!!

But……sad truth is Wg it doesn’t and won’t change a thing for me…..I’m good. I have also shared this thread extensively with my partner (poor girl) and she marvels……”man you’ve been through hell and back at times”…..upbringing….school struggles….bosses who were determined to can you because they couldn’t understand and couldn’t fathom your vision and outspoken manner. “You dive head-first into things most people run away from, and run away f-a-s-t!!! “It’s only because of who you are that your successful”. Ya but, shot and missed, only to rise and conquer…what a ride and still is….woooohoooo!!!!

I know my life would make many folks crazy……most sane, rational people have no interest in living like that……I do, it drives me, it floats my boat, contrary to what all others think. It’s maybe not rational…..but, nor is it dull, it challenges me.

Like I said previously, I bow to your knowledge ,and acknowledge the experts in the field from which you draw…….. but…. .anyway.

Nuff said…

toofat

REPORT ABUSE

[Bibliophile]

@ Pete-Puma

There are two problems with what you propose.

Either the fallacy is that you are equating ADHD impulsivity with ODD defiance. The ADHD person will say what they are thinking, which is good, but they may not automatically oppose order. The opposition will depend on other factors. They could agree 100% and become a complete booster/yes man. It is the ODD that would want to always say “No” think about my thought or do it my way. Being creative is not the same thing as being a devil’s advocate.

Or

You are assuming that what the ADHD person says will be relevant and not dismissed. If he/she gets up and starts ranting about the colour of the widget instead of something more relevant, the crowd will disregard the interruption. It would have to be relevant to the discussion. However, with someone who is ADHD, there is no guarantee that it will. They might have been perseverating/hyperfocusing on a thought that was already addressed or on a tangential issue. Creative does not mean that it is on topic or practical. Yes, sometimes it is good to “think outside of the box”, unless the thought is in the 8th dimension instead of this one and completely misses the point.

A room (or virtual room) full of ADHD people would be a room where no-one listens to each other, the discussion does not proceed to its necessary conclusion, tempers rise, and people’s feelings are hurt by the creative, inhibited and impulsive things others say. Consensus would be unlikely because some would be thinking of other things (inattentive), some would be focusing on whatever interested them to the exclusion of other stuff (hyperfocusing) and the remainder would be too busy arguing. The only thing in their favour is that they all would want to get out of the situation as quickly as possible because they wanted to move on and do something else.

Rick’s take on an ADHD at a meeting http://totallyadd.com/the-boring-meeting/

REPORT ABUSE

[Author]

Posts