What do you all think about Mark Patey?

[blackdog]

@sdwa That sounds horrible. And completely the opposite of what a coach should be. Revolting is right.

I have gotten a similar attitude from a lot of people. The therapist I was seeing wrote in his notes to my doctor that I was “still refusing to attend the self esteem group” that he had recommended. I told him repeatedly that it was at a bad time and I couldn’t do it at that time. When I finally did go it was just repeat of everything he said in our sessions. Total waste of time.

I get treated like I am just not being cooperative all the time. Which I guess, now that I think about it, is true. I am a little “oppositional”. But only when I oppose what they are saying. 😉

My problem with CBT is that it focuses on turning negative cognitions into positive cognitions. “How we think is how we feel which affects how we behave.” Which is true. But it doesn’t help me keep the house clean or remember to go to the pharmacy or be on time. It completely ignores the serious and very real problems that are causing the “negative cognitions” in the first place.

 

Now, on the subject of positive thinking- It does work and it is very important. Will it make you rich and famous and give you everything you wish for and cure your ADHD? No. But it is a very powerful force. However, true positive thinking is very, very difficult to achieve. To really truly believe it, deep down inside, without any hint of a “yeah, but…” or a “but what if…” is damn near impossible.

I bought a copy of “The Secret” in a second hand book store a few years ago. Just to see what all the hype was about. I read a little bit, then skimmed a little more, then promptly tossed it in the corner and left it there. I was going to take it back to the store and trade it for another book but I kept forgetting so I still have it around here somewhere. About the only “secret” it contains is how to make yourself rich by convincing people that you have “the secret”.

It reminded me of a story, not sure where it originated, about a guy who placed and ad in the paper offering advice on how to become a millionaire for $2. When people sent him the $2 he sent them a slip of paper saying “Don’t answer ads in the paper asking you for money”.

Now, there is a movie called “What the Bleep do We Know?”. You may have heard of it. It talks about the power of positive thought and how our thoughts shape reality from a more serious scientific view, without all the “just imagine you have a big fancy house and it will appear” nonsense. We rented it by mistake one night. It had a funny title and said it starred Marley Matlin. We thought it was an actual movie. Husband lost interest pretty quick because it was a little too intellectual for his liking. I found it all quite interesting. I’ve been meaning to rent it again because some of the theories were a little over my head and I need to listen again to get it all.

Whether or not positive thinking can change you life is debatable. But it feels good, so why not? I spent many, many years focusing on the negative. And it just made me miserable. Instead of just seeing the problem I need to start looking for the solution. And that is a healthy kind of positive thinking. Not believing that just changing the way you think will change your life, but believing that it can change and finding a way to make it happen.

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[blackdog]

@seabassd @Scattybird

I don’t object at all to having the donate button, or the store, because it is all completely optional and there is a lot of help and advice being provided here free of charge. And because we all know who is behind the site and can interact with them so there is a certain amount of…. accountability. I was actually considering making a donation until yesterday when our financial situation took a dramatic turn for the worse. For now all spending has to be put on hold except for the essentials. And I have to try to…*gulp*…budget. You know, like actually pay attention to how much is in the bank and how much is being spent. It makes me feel faint just thinking about it. 😕

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[blackdog]

Hmm…I’m starting to feel like a spammer here. But I need to post again.

I listened to about 20 minutes of Mark Patey today.  I had to stop after that because I didn’t have any more time. And because my hand was starting to cramp from all the notes I was trying to furiously scribble down about all the things I disagreed with. And there were many. I was not impressed, to put it mildly.

The one thing I have to agree with is that kids with ADHD should not be given the idea that they are “broken”. Like any kid with any kind of disability, they need to be taught that it’s okay to be different and be given the confidence they need to do their best.

But his story about his son doing well in private school because he didn’t tell them that he has ADHD is full of logical fallacies. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There is no way of knowing that his son did better at that school just because the teachers didn’t know about his ADHD.

Not to mention he talks about it like as if sending your kid to private school is an option that is available to everyone.

He makes assumptions based on his own personal experiences. And even though he says that he is not anti-medication and he acknowledges that there are different points of view, he doesn’t do it very sincerely.

BTW, “post hoc ergo propter hoc” is pretty much the only Latin phrase I know. And that’s only because I watch Big Bang Theory.

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[sdwa]

@blackdog

It’s possible that teachers who knew a kid had ADHD could project negative attitudes on a kid and negative expectations that the kid would pick up on. But it’s also true that a teacher could not know at all, and completely misinterpret a child’s struggles in school, attributing it to “disrespectful” behavior or low motivation.

Which is my long-winded way of saying I agree with you. There are so many factors that go into school success. What is motivating for one kid could be totally demoralizing or frustrating for another.

I also agree with the idea that communicating that someone is “broken” is not a healthy message, but so often in school, anyone non-conforming is going to be labelled broken no matter what. Whether there’s a diagnosis or not. I was always considered weird and a druggie, despite the fact that I was never on drugs in high school. I’ve been considered a freak all my life, right? And that’s without anyone knowing why they should think that.

Often “experts” seem to have the attitude that what works for them should work for everyone.  I seriously doubt that to be the case. Everyone is different. We can’t make generalizations that easily. There may be similarities or parallels to how we function, but each of us is unique and may have very different needs.

The best coaches recognize we need to customize a system that works for us.

I am still stuck on being mad at the people who say if you can’t afford coaching, you’re just not trying hard enough to make money materialize in your bank account that just isn’t there. That’s crazy talk. It’s one thing to not work with someone who can’t afford it – that’s totally fine. It is not okay to dump on someone who can’t afford it or question their sincerity. No excuse for that.

Kind of pathetic that even if I could afford more extensive support, I still wouldn’t be able to get it because the people out there providing these services are bad at their jobs. There should be some sort of code of ethics for these people.

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[blackdog]

@sdwa There should be some regulation, agreed. But sadly even having regulations and codes doesn’t ensure quality of service. I’m reminded of certain mental health professionals I have encountered. It would help to require at least some training for anyone who wants to act as a life coach or something. Having to spend the time and money to take a course would deter some of the ones who are just out to make easy money.

For myself, I don’t really need or want a coach. At least I don’t think I do. But I’m stubborn and never have known when to get help. But the one thing I really, really, really wanted and needed was medication. And I finally got that. I can’t believe the difference in just a couple of days. I feel so much better.  I know all of the stuff a coach would tell me already, just like I knew all the stuff I was told in my CBT sessions. It’s acting on it that I have trouble with. And the medication is going to (hopefully) give me the boost I need to get over that hurdle.

I believe services should be available to anyone regardless of income. If I was a coach or therapist I could not turn away someone who really needed help just because they couldn’t afford my fee. I wouldn’t feel right about it. They could offer payment plans allowing them to pay so much a month. My mother had a dentist who allowed her to pay by post dated cheque.  So if it was $400 she would leave 4 cheques for $100 each and he would cash them over the next four months. I have always thought that was a great idea. He still gets his full fee and the people who can’t afford to pay a huge fee all at once get the care they need. Of course it doesn’t work for everyone but it would help some.

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[sdwa]

@blackdog

Sure, I know exactly what you mean. It’s terrible that coaching is prohibitively expensive, and people who could benefit from it can’t afford it. But just in terms of thinking about coaches in private practice, running a business, their fees are what they are. There is something ethically dubious about “helping professions” to begin with.

Presumably they charge what they need to live on – it’s their livelihood, just as it would be for an auto mechanic, accountant, housekeeper, bus driver,  chef, or whatever. Can’t blame anyone for that. Some therapists have a “sliding scale” and charge by income level, but I haven’t seen that with coaching.

What I object to is when a coach suggests liquidating your 401K so you can pay them $150 an hour for ten months, and says you’re not sincere if this isn’t a realistic option for you. Extortion tactics and/or bullying are unacceptable. Offer a deal. Don’t dump on people who can’t do it. Etc.

There is cheaper coaching. I personally wouldn’t pay more than $50/hr.  no matter what – even if I could afford it. Let’s say a coach talks to three clients per day – when you calculate what they’d be earning per week at that rate, the fees they’d need to charge in order to survive become more obvious.

The ADDCA coach training program costs about $10,000. Those people 1) had money to begin with; 2) were pretty serious about their intentions. Most coaches don’t share their methods – they develop proprietary information as their product to their clients. I wonder if it is even possible to learn the techniques they use without becoming a coach – if you didn’t want to be a coach but just wanted to understand the process for your own use. My guess is that information would be a well-kept secret.

Theoretically, a good coach can help you set up systems and structures to actually take care of business.  They can help you identify where you function at your best, and start to build your life around those parameters, rather than trying to improve in areas of weakness. For me it was way more helpful than CBT, although I had a productive experience working with a therapist who also used coaching techniques in a group setting. I didn’t think I was accomplishing much beyond just feeling better about myself, but I acquired some important clues about what kind of career path might be best for me. Didn’t happen over night or even gel mentally for me for a long time.

Theoretically, a good coach could help with the action part. In my experience, having a routine and sticking to it, plus having a “body double” (someone to check in with who is doing the same activity) are both super helpful.

It is hard to find information. I’ve waded around on the web for weeks looking for ways to help my son with his situation, and to help myself cope with it, as the whole thing seems to be spiraling out of control. And there just aren’t any affordable services out there. Coaching is too young a professional for there to be people working in the non-profit sector or at public agencies where low-income people could get access. Typical coaching clientele appears to be solidly middle class. Sort of like college planning – it’s for people who already have everything they need to succeed. Low-income people are disposable, irrelevant, and useless in this universe.

If I were a coach, I’d want to make services available to people who otherwise couldn’t afford it because I think skills identified in coaching are a crucial piece of the ADHD puzzle that could literally save lives, or at least decades of pain and frustration, etc. But like everything else, the market controls who gets what they need. It is an unfair, totally gamed system where people who have something get more, and people who need something get shafted. That’s how our society works.

 

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[Patte Rosebank]

Holy smokes, are we passionate about this!  Maybe we need a “Q&A With a Coach” webinar (hint-hint).

You’re right that coaching is a bit of a wild-west right now, because anyone can hang up a shingle and call themselves a Coach.  

But I’m learning that that’s changing.

It’s getting closer to becoming a fully regulated profession, because the reputable Coaches are well aware of the damage that the less-than-reputable ones are doing to the profession and (more importantly) to the people who come to coaching for help and end up being hurt.

I also agree that any Coach who makes us feel guilty about not being willing & able to pay for their services, is clearly not the Coach for us.

At the same time, if we can’t comfortably pay for the sessions, it’s going to be really hard for us to fully commit to them. Shelter, food, heat, and other necessities trump everything else…as they should.

Good coaches know this, and they will respectfully tell us, up-front, that now is not the best time for us to take this on. If the way they tell us makes us feel guilty or resentful, we have to tell them so, right away.  (That’s hard for me, because I’m so used to bottling things up.)

And now, I’ll tell you a secret…

Lots of Coaches offer sliding-scales, and even “scholarships” (free coaching). But they don’t advertise this, because if they did, everyone would expect a discount. By charging full-price to most clients, Coaches can afford to offer discounts & scholarships to those who really need them. And there are so many of us here who really need them!

There are also ADDCA Student-Coaches-in-Training, who need a certain number of hours of actual coaching with actual clients, in order to earn their certification. Some of those hours can be pro-bono (free), and the rest have to be paid. But even a token fee of a few dollars counts as “paid”. They’re listed on the ADDCA website, and some of them are listed in the TotallyADD Coach Directory.

Seeing all the things that are supposed to be able to help us, but are always out of our reach, is bound to make us see it all in a really bad light. And this field has more than its share of snake-oil salesmen. But there are a lot of good-guys in it too, who are willing to help us, if we ask them.

And one of the best bunch of good-guys is right here at TotallyADD!

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[sdwa]

Unfortunately, in a desperate situation the one intervention that is most likely to help is coaching, so if now is not the time to take it on, chances are there will never come a time when it will be possible, because I’ll never be able to get out of the situation I’m in without help. On the other hand, I’ve spent a lot of money on coaching, and the whole time my financial situation has only gotten worse, so maybe it really won’t help.

I agreed to coaching at a rate I know I won’t be able to stick with for more than three months because I can’t afford it, and shouldn’t even be doing it. But I feel like if I don’t, I’ll stay stuck and overwhelmed. It’s a huge gamble and another source of stress.

Meanwhile, the coaching services I’ve seen that are for families with children cost $150 an hour. My kid will be dead in the ground before that becomes possible. It’s become an urgent situation. I don’t know where to get help. It’s terrifying.

There are no free or public services. It’s a healthcare issue, not a luxury lifestyle issue. ADHD isn’t some rich person sitting around their house looking for a personal trainer. This is serious stuff.

Therapists are capable of stating up front when they offer a sliding scale. Coaches should do the same. Therapists usually ask for proof of income, so they know you’re not lying –  it’s documented. That is standard procedure – not rocket science.  They know how low they can go, and that’s as low as they go – but at least they are honest about it, so no one has to wonder, guess, or beg. Many therapists publish exactly what income level correlates to the fee they expect. There is no secrecy, no guesswork, and they don’t arbitrarily impose different rates on different people without their knowledge. It’s all out in the open, as it should be. They can do that presumably because they have taken charge of their own welfare and decided in advance what they’re willing to accept. That way, if they only attract the lowest-income clients by being honest, they already know they can live with the consequences.

Coaches should be trained to provide referrals to public services, which is something competent therapists also can do. They should know if programs exist, and where to find them.

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